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On the People Over Perks podcast today, we have Jennifer Samreny. Jennifer is HR Business Partner at Pinterest. 


In this episode we cover many topics including Jennifer’s road to her current role, her criteria on how she evaluates opportunities, cultural differences she has experienced in the U.S. vs. Europe as well working at a start-up vs. a scale-up. She also gives career advice to HR professionals and goes into the importance of implementing frameworks. Enjoy. 

Notes

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Full Episode Transcript

Andy Parker (host)

- Okay, Jennifer, thanks for joining us today on the People Over Perks podcast. Thanks so much for hopping on the call.

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Thanks for having me.

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Excellent, now, so to kick off, in a nutshell, I would love to hear a summary from you as to how you would describe your role at Pinterest. You're an HR business partner, I believe. I'd love to kind of get an explanation as to, what does that mean, and what falls within your realm there?

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Yeah, so as an HR business partner, I support a specific client group, specifically product and design, which is part of a broader engineering product and design group at Pinterest. So I have one client that I work with who manages both teams. And within that client group, there are several managers. But really, my role is to support top-line leadership, focusing on strategy, long-term growth, anything that sort of falls into the broader “what will our team look like?” and “how are they going to continue to be successful into the future?”

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Excellent, thank you. And I'd love to get started by kind of going through your career path on the route to Pinterest, if that's okay. Can you help paint the journey for us?

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Yeah. I started out in HR as a recruiter, actually. And typically HR  Professionals, we'll start out as an HR generalist or as a recruiter.

Although there are many times where people pivot into HR. But I was really lucky. I started out as a recruiter at Kaiser Permanente, which is the largest HMO in California, and so one of the cool things about working in healthcare. Is that the majority of the people you work with are women. And the leadership is primarily women and that was a really unique experience to be 25, and  I didn't know anything else besides being in a room with these incredible strong female leaders from the time I was at 25 until I was 30. And that was a really transformative experience, quite different from what ended up, as I pivoted into tech, that was a unique experience, but I think starting out in that world was the best way to launch my career.

When I was 30, I actually decided to go back to school. And that was when I actually got my undergraduate degree. So I love talking about that. And I think it's important to talk about because I have a very non-traditional, history with moving up in the career of HR.

So I was growing as a recruiter, I hit what I call the paper's ceiling. And that is, I got so far, and then I couldn't grow any further because there was a requirement for an undergraduate degree for any leadership roles. So when I was 30, I actually went back to school and got my undergraduate degree in HR.

And I worked for a recruitment process outsourcing firm, which is essentially acting as an in-house recruiter, but functioning as a consultant. So it's the best of both worlds and I loved it. But after getting my degree, I wanted to move back to the Bay Area. And when I arrived, I ended up working for a startup called Just Answer, which at the time was 30 people.

And I started as a recruiter, but very quickly because there wasn't HR support, HR leadership, I moved into a director role with Just Answer, and that was an amazing experience. So the startup scaled from 30 to 200 people, which is the great scale up story, which we love to hear. And then I realized that there was this gap in my career, which is I had no international experience, no only international understanding.

And so I chose to work for a company called Sitecore, which was based out of Copenhagen. That was a unique experience as an American, suddenly being dropped into this world where the culture was different, people thought differently about how to support teams, what a great contributor within your team looks like, how you grew in your career path, what the education levels were. Everything is just quite different from the United States.  And that was this eye-opening experience. And I loved it and I wanted more of it. And it became very clear, though, that this was a gap and that if I wanted to continue growing in HR, I needed to have broader cultural understanding and that wasn't going to come just from reading a book. It needed to be more immersive. 

So I made the decision to go back to school and decided to do that in Europe. Some people know that some don't most MBA programs are in English II, no matter which country they're in. So, getting an MBA is the best way as an American, because as a true American, I only spoke one language, that I could get this broader experience this cultural immersion and still be able to continue my career.

So I applied to the university of Mannheim in Germany, was accepted. And then it was a whirlwind from there of getting my MBA. I did start to learn German, and then eventually was recruited by a company called Contentful, which at that time was quite small, about a hundred people in Berlin, but is now headquartered and multinational and just a real juggernaut in the CMS space.

That was an amazing experience. I actually recommend, when I speak with other HR professionals, you need to have this experience of living and working in another country. I struggled tremendously to think through how to take people, practices and programs and make them successful in a country where I couldn't read some contracts, I couldn't necessarily understand everything that I was reading, Berlin is an incredibly multinational city, multicultural city, so most of my employees, we had 52 different nationalities and ethnicities within the building  and then taking that and broadening into, we actually spin up our San Francisco office while I was there.

So all of a sudden everything old was new again, right? So I had to take what we were doing in Germany and bring it back to America. I think a great example of that is the education stipend that is so common in Germany, everyone, it's just accepted that you get this, you're going to have an education stipend, and you're going to use it. And this is actually common in America. It is done, but it's not as common and people aren't sure how to use it. And so how do you convey the importance of something like that? How do you convey why it's important to Contentful and why it's important to the growth of the organization? So there were all these sorts of challenges that came up coming back to America, as it were. 

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Interesting, thanks for sharing that. I think, as you were saying about hitting this paper ceiling where I'm sure you've probably got many opinions on the pros and cons of obviously using university degrees as a signal for hiring. 

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- It's interesting when I was in Europe and, in particular, like I said, Copenhagen was my first destination outside the U.S., and everyone in the room had master's degrees, everyone.  Everyone had done internships. It was just commonplace to have an advanced degree, which is unique versus America.

I do think that the sort of normalcy of advanced education is ultimately a positive for other countries. And I think it's an area where America certainly could use some additional support in the future. I think we're getting there, but people are also it's so expensive. One of my favorite topics over a glass of wine with people in Europe was to ask them, “How much do you think it costs to get your master's degree?”, “How much do you think it costs to have a baby?” There's just healthcare costs, et cetera. And so it's just a different cost structure. But the parody and this sort of equity of education across Europe, and of course the Nordic regions, I was always impressed by that, and I think it ultimately is a positive for the countries. 

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Yeah, so interesting. And obviously you've been on quite a wild ride then with a number of different businesses. And I'd love to hear whether you have any kind of frameworks in mind, or decision-making criteria that you've used along the way to help you evaluate different opportunities, as you've made those moves from one place to the next. 

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Yeah. In evaluating opportunities, I typically look for outstanding leadership that I'm going to be partnering with, I never want to be the smartest person in the room. I love being around really smart, really ambitious leaders.

And I look for that drive within the organization as well. Do they hire for potential? Do they understand the future of the product? Are they able to articulate where they're heading, is the vision there? In speaking with organizations where they're struggling with articulating their vision or what their competitive advantages, we all have those times in developing our product or our organization, but if they're unable to articulate that, if we're unable to have a conversation about “Here's where the future goes,” it's very difficult for me to then develop an HR strategy that supports that. I do find I'm more successful when I joined companies that have a vision and are executing on that vision, even if it pivots. At least being able to articulate that and recognize in the environment where their unique value proposition is, or being willing to pivot when things are difficult. 

Those are all the pieces I look for. There aren't specific frameworks that I've used necessarily, it's a little bit of gut instinct and a little bit of “Is there a connection?” 

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Yeah, interesting. And very tangibly, do you literally just have those kinds of questions in mind when you then meet the potential C-levels that you're going to be working with? Or how do you extract that information from a company before you join?

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- As a classic recruiter, I have a ton of behavioral interview questions that I'm basically using when I'm in an interview. I'll ask, “Tell me about a time when you worked with an HR person, where it didn't work out, what was missing? What were the big challenges” or  “When you think about the future of the organization, how are you picturing your team developing? Is everybody who's here right now, still here? Or are you expecting to see some turnover and therefore, like, how are you thinking about the long-term recruiting strategy,” et cetera. Oftentimes leaders haven't necessarily thought about this, so these questions are somewhat new, but listening to their response gives you a sense of how they think about those challenges and what they expect from the person that they're hiring.  

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Yeah. Interesting. And I'd love to dive into the fact that you then took an MBA as well. What kind of led you to that decision, and then after having completed the MBA, what do you think that gave you? And do you think that's given you particular strengths over perhaps other people who haven't been through that experience?

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- The decision to go back to school was based on two pieces. One was the cultural piece. And in fact, when I worked with the CEO that I was working with when I was leaving Sitecore, I had this conversation of oh, I'm going to go to Germany, and I'm going to get my MBA, and the overwhelming response was very positive. And then when I actually talked to a former executive from another company, he was like “Why would you leave America and go to another country? Go to Stanford or Berkeley. Everybody goes to Stanford or Berkeley.” So for me, part of it was “I'm not going to be able to really support a global organization if I don't have this cultural understanding” and the best way to do that is to get out of my little Silicon Valley world.

The second piece was I would support my client, and they would be chatting with their CFO, sometimes my client was the CFO, and they would start talking about terms where I was like writing down “I don't know what they're saying.” I think a great example is WACC, which is Weighted Adjusted Cost of Capital.

And I remember I heard someone say it and we were talking about funding, and he was talking about WACC, and I was thinking, “WACK, what is this?” That's a good example, “I can't really support my clients if I don't understand what they’re talking about.” I will say my MBA was really tough.

I was in the room with people who had significant business and financial backgrounds. I did really well at the org psych class, I didn't do so well at financial basics. I had to take the support classes to even do well enough to understand the basics. I will say that I now understand what WACC is and how to calculate it. I don't think I could do it without a primer, but I could do it. But the important piece is, as HR leaders, we're challenged constantly to match our clients and be able to support them and be able to understand where their biggest challenges are. And the language of business is not really covered in getting your undergrad in HR. So to learn that language like any, like learning any new language, I think going to school is the way to do it. 

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Yeah, absolutely. I think you've hit on two really interesting points there with the fact that, having that cultural experience and mixing with different like nationalities and learning how business is done across cultures is super interesting.

And then, also, being able to speak the lingo and being able to match the needs of the business. Are there any other pieces of career advice that you find yourself frequently giving other HR professionals, or what are the tips or hints have you given along the way to help people progress in their career? 

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- I just had this conversation with someone yesterday, I am model and framework intensive. What I mean by that is I have a model of framework for everything. I have a framework for having difficult conversations with your employees, I have a framework for developing as a leader, I talk in frameworks and tool sets constantly. I think one of the challenges of HR is articulating to the business without talking about the topics that are related to their teams in a way that is visionary, instead of in a way that is risk-focused. All of this is about mitigating risk and there’s an additional piece of once you’ve mitigated the risk, you sort of develop the [sorry, at home and dogs and kids and we’re gonna all lean into it] thinking about creating that conversation for vision, but also articulating what the risk is, and I think the best way to do that is speaking through frameworks and talking about how to use those tool sets and frameworks in a way that evolves the business and supports growth. I think every HR person should have at least three or four frameworks that they use regularly on or in their back pocket.

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'd also love to touch on the topic of like startups and scaleups obviously you had that experience both with Contentful and with your other previous experience, and having now also worked with businesses like Pinterest, how do you think about the pros and cons of working in each type of business, and what are some of the big differences that you see? And how would you advise somebody if they were then weighing up their options between opportunities in any way? 

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Yeah, I think it's an advantage to have different experiences, obviously, because that's my background. Working with scale-ups means that you're deep into the operations and deep into the tactics in a way that you aren't necessarily when you have centers of expertise that you're relying on.

The advantage of coming from the startup world is that I understand what my centers of expertise are struggling with. So if I'm speaking with my recruiting leader, or I'm speaking with the L and D team, I have implemented, not to the degree of Multinational 3000 person company, but I have implemented programs related to L and D.

I understand recruiting. I have the sort of like basics of how to conduct an investigation. Do I need to do that investigation? Not necessarily. Now with that said, working at a scale up means that I do have more hands on and just general influence across each of those practices. If I feel like I'm seeing my leaders struggle in a particular way, and I think we need a new L and D intervention, and I'm at a scale up that's just a matter of articulating their business need, presenting it, managing the change, and implementing.

In a larger company, I have to influence, I have to articulate the need, go back to the business I might hear a no, I may need to find an alternative way to support the business in the meantime. You need to really start practicing your influence skills in a very real and very tactical way.

So it's different. But I think they compliment one another. I think I can understand the business more effectively because I've had this experience that was at a hundred-person company.  And I think that when I am advising my client, and they're talking about where the challenges are, I can understand that they started this business at a hundred people. So I remember what it was like back then, even though I wasn't here, I think one of the challenges of HR is you come into a business and this is the house you live in, but it's not the house you built. So you have to live in this house. You have to figure out, you have to understand what went into building it and understanding those that history, even if you weren't there, is really important. 

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Super interesting, thank you for sharing that.  And you mentioned that kinda throwing yourself in the deep end with having experience in different cultures and how you yourself struggled initially with your role at Contentful, where you had these contracts to read that you couldn't read and so on.

Do you now have any kind of shortcuts as it were to help people get up to speed in that sort of environment or perhaps learnings that you took from your experience that you could then help somebody, navigate their way to being fully ramped up quicker than perhaps you were able to yourself?

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Having a lot of empathy for yourself, I think it's the part that people miss.  And then really educating yourself about other cultures. I think the culture map or the culture code, I think those are great ways to understand how other cultures think about and are challenged in their own ways and how their history has influenced that.

But there's also a lot of leveraging your team. So when I couldn't read a contract, or I couldn't understand something, I knew that I had to leverage my team more effectively to tell me if there was something I was missing, because I couldn't necessarily read everything. I think more so than the contracts though, because you can effectively mitigate that over time, like tactical solutions. I think the next step, though, is how do I operate in this culture in a way that's effective? German culture is just different than American culture and motivating employees and supporting employees is different.

The expectations of the employees in the U.S. is that they are going to see a different company every two years, and they're along with you for a period of time. I'm speaking very broadly by the way in generalisms, but more generally, your employees in other countries are expecting like, “How am I going to stay in this career and continue to grow at this company for a longer period of time?”

Now the globalism that has come with the tech influence and what we now call Silicone LA, which is like Berlin, is that we're starting to see more movement, more recognition “Oh, there are other opportunities, and I'm going to move around.” But at the crux of that is still an expectation that they're going to be supported during their time in a way that is a little different than U.S. employees will expect.

So I think engagement surveys are one way to really make sure that you're doubling down on understanding where your employees’ concerns are you, the next piece is performance evaluations. Making sure your giving  employees timely feedback, timely support, and then they're actually creating their future.

So they're going to dictate to you in whatever culture they're in, how they want to move forward, how they want to be supported, and then making sure you listen and respond to that. 

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Yeah, I think it sounds like obviously there is still some difference in cultures between what's accepted as ‘the tour of duty’.

When it's known that you're coming in to do a specific job for a specific period of time versus the sort of like long-term career growth with one specific company. Yeah, that's very different to in Silicon Valley or other tech cultures then than perhaps more traditional companies.

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Absolutely. I think it is interesting, though. I think the globalism that's happening, I think there will be an equalizing over the next, maybe 20, 30 years, where I think the expectations will become more similar. I'm super curious about what that's gonna look like.

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned that you have a framework and a process for everything. We were chatting beforehand, and you mentioned the Greiner Curve as one of your favorites. Can you tell the audience about that? Paint a picture, because obviously, we can't look at it right now. If you could give us an overview as to what that model is. 

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- So the Greiner Curve identifies the natural curve of organizations as they grow. And what that means is, in the beginning, it's all about creativity, it's a great example. So level one, the founder and the original employees, it's all about being creative and finding that niche and iterating, and there's an excitement, but then after a period of time there becomes crisis point, crisis sounds negative, but the reaction, the actual sort of crux of it is, over time, to move to the next level, even to grow as an organization, whether that's employee growth, revenue growth, et cetera, you have to start putting processes in place. So what you'll find is people who had this ultimate freedom and creativity now start to see some processes come into place, and there's a reaction to that in the business.

And there are continual crisis points. I think there are like five levels of the Greiner curve. There are specific crisis points that are outlined and you, as an employee, will feel it, and as a manager, will hear it from your employees. I don't have as much freedom. I'm not as happy as I was, this place is changing. It happens in every business, and managers will react to that in different ways. And my goal with my clients is always for them to be able to have a self-awareness that is reflective of the reality, but maybe taking some of the emotion out of it, because it can feel pretty bad as a leader thinking specifically in these companies that are pivoting from 30 to 200 to see one of your original engineers quit, that is really jarring. And what you'll see businesses do sometimes is have this reaction.

“Okay. Nobody can leave. We have to keep these original engineers. They are the lifeblood of this company. We are going to keep them forever.” Sharing what that transition means for the organization and how organizations naturally evolve over time and then asking questions of the business, like “Where are we going now that we've seen this? We can't have this ultimate creativity, ultimate freedom. What is going to this next level look like, how do we make sure that we're still supporting original employees with creative solutions, while scaling the business and adding in more layers of complexity?”

There's another sort of crisis point, which is around red tape, and that typically happens in larger organizations where you've put all these pieces in, and now it's like absolute bureaucracy, mayhem, and companies like Google have addressed this by creating what they call bureaucracy busters, which are people that are specifically focused on finding where these areas of bureaucracy are stopping the business and keeping them from growth and unraveling those where all of that bureaucracy came into being, because at each of the crisis points, we put pieces into place that made sense at that time.

And do they still make sense? By using something like a model, you take some of the emotion out of it, and you can see that other companies have struggled with this and correlate it back. And then the same way that I just shared with you about Google and understanding the business landscape and how they've, how other companies responded to these issues in the past is really powerful for leaders to be able to take some of the emotion of “My original engineer just left” out of it and start to execute in a way that feels more, the word I keep wanting to use is emotionless, it's not it, but just not making decisions from a place of emotion, understanding this is the natural course of business, and this is where we're headed, and we have to stay focused on the vision. 

 

Andy Parker (host)

- So I assume that can be applied to any business, any stage, any team. And I imagine you also have different teams at the different phases of the Greiner Curve within the larger organizations as well. 

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Oh, Andy, you nailed it. There are emerging teams that are still in the creativity phase in 10,000 person companies and where this becomes a challenge is making sure that the centers of expertise are supporting those employees that are maybe in one of the emerging products groups in a way that makes sense for them while still supporting the rest of the business as they're trying to unravel the red tape.

 

So it's a dance, it's a real nuanced dance. Sometimes when I have client groups that say “You know how I manage my team is different than how she manages her team. And we're just very different.” I'll use the curve to actually say, “Do you think maybe she is needing to delegate more because of where she is on the curve? What is different? Why is that team operating in a different way?” And by having something that, again, is outside of themselves and not personal, and isn't based on maybe a negative experience that they've had, I find that objectivity can lead to tremendous solutions and results.

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Do you find that leaders are usually pretty good at identifying where their teams are on the curve? Or do you sometimes find that it takes a merit mirror to be held up for them to really understand?  

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- I do. Maybe I've been lucky to just work with amazing leaders, but my leaders that I've shown the curve to, there's this aha moment, and I do feel like they accurately articulate where they are and. I haven't had, I just feel like I've been really lucky to work with some amazing leaders over time where they've showed me their own models and I share models with them, and we have a great repertoire, and they're self-aware enough. But I think some of that is also identifying companies where I'm working with leaders that are self-aware because I think that's, again, so important.  If someone identified, “Oh, I think we're at this stage,” and I felt strongly, I think this is where the influencing of the HRBP, and I talk about this a lot, how to be an effective influencer is very important and influencing in a way that is acknowledging their experience, and then at the same time holding space for other realities and exploring those with your client. I think that's just really important and a key skill for a great HRV group.

 

Andy Parker (host)

- And do you have any resources or tips for anybody who is looking to learn how to become better at influencing? 

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- I think mindfulness is probably your best bet. I do believe in meditation and mindfulness as being a big part of being a fantastic influencer. I think sometimes influencing is somehow complated with manipulation.

I think instead it's just holding space for a lot of different opinions, a lot of different ideas, and then using strategies to figure out which of those opinions or ideas are the best for the business, the best for the employees, and are ultimately getting us to our goal. So mindfulness is helpful and a lot of Socratic practice, a lot of “Tell me more,” and “What, if you did have the answer to this problem, what would that look like?” I talk about models again, I think ‘Fierce Conversations’ which is a fantastic book that I highly recommend everyone read, ‘Fierce Conversations’, ‘Mineral Rights Model’, which is a model for really getting to the crux of an issue. The idea is that when you're mining, you want to go as deep as possible. So really go deeper and deeper with your client. I use that model all the time in conversations with my leaders and I find it to be a really effective way to make sure we're talking about the most important things. And then also deep diving far enough into the issue that we're able to actually come up with the best solution.

 

Andy Parker (host)

- I love that. I love that. Excellent, so thinking about HR challenges very broadly, are there any particular challenges that you wish you could wave a magic wand and have solved? And what some of the thorniest issues that you think exist for HR professionals that you wish there was a good solution for.

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Not so much waving a magic wand because I don't have a solution for it, but I think the HRBP model, as originally developed, I think it was developed in like 2009, I remember first reading about it and being like "HR is finally getting a seat at the table." I think we need to be doing more around that. So we have a seat at the table, now what? 

Where I have seen HR professionals struggle is getting a seat at the table, but then not necessarily driving the vision, but just executing on what the leadership says is important.  Again, back to the influence piece, I think iterating on the HRBP model and continuing to evolve what it means to be a support to the business and an advisor, a partner, to your client. I think that's so important.

Again, my current manager and I actually had a walk yesterday, socially distanced with masks on, but one of the things she said, which has just been rolling around in my head is “What does it mean to be a partner? The last word in HR Business Partner is partner, what does that mean?” 

Your partner is someone who you sometimes might disagree with and that you also support, and that is, more broadly, someone you're really next to and walking next to not behind, not in front of, and so getting that balance right, getting that rhythm right, I think that's probably where I see a tremendous amount of opportunity for HR business partners in the future.

But again, I can't wave a magic line because I don't know what the perfect space looks like. I think it continues to evolve. And the fact that model was developed over 10 years ago and still has so much opportunity, and it's continuing to be iterated on, I think is commendable, and when I think about that word, HR business partner, I think there's just so much more to be doing there.

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Excellent. And final questions to round out, so shifting from the problems to the things that you're particularly excited about, what are some of the developments that you think are truly pushing new ground in HR and where are you looking forward to things heading?

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Yeah,  I think we're all, COVID has put us all in this new space, hasn't it? Future of work is suddenly so important and so different than where we thought it would be. But I also think that in America, in particular, and I imagine that in Europe, it's also the same - Black Lives Matter, The Me Too Movement, just general social justice work that has been done over the last year. And the progress that we've seen means that employees are really expecting their organizations to step up and be a part of the solution in a way that we didn't necessarily see in the past. And that means for employees also having more control over their career and their growth. We see so many digital nomads now.

What does that mean? What does it mean to grow with an organization? I'll throw one more model in and that’s ‘70, 20, 10’, which is how people, it's a learning model, basically evolve their skills over time. 70% of it is experiential, so on the job learning, and then 20% of it is that social piece, like mentors and your boss, and then 10% of it's like the formal piece.

And I'm seeing more and more employees recognize that ‘70, 20, 10’ is so important. And they're making sure they're taking on projects, and they're making sure that they're having experiences that really round up that 70, and not just waiting for the formal training, I love that. I am so inspired by our employees, by having these conversations with team members who are taking control of their careers and recognizing patterns and systems that don't support them and breaking those.

So it's just been an amazing time to work in tech and I continue to be inspired by these employees. 

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Amazing. And that's a great note to end on. So Jennifer, thank you so much for the conversation today. 

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Thank you for having me. It was wonderful. 

 

Andy Parker (host)

- Really enjoyed it and yeah, enjoy the rest of your day. 

 

Jennifer Samreny (guest)

- Thanks so much. Have a great day. 



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